Welcome And The Lost Recording

SPEAKER_06 0:09

Welcome to Music of Play, a podcast about creativity, inspiration, and the messy joy of making games and art.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

We'll chat with designers, writers, artists, and makers about where their ideas come from, how they shape their work, and what keeps them going.

SPEAKER_06 0:26

I'm Sarah Doom. I write fiction, design games, and make art. I'm deeply invested in creativity and inspiration, and I'm always looking for ways to incorporate others' routines and rituals into something I can.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

And I'm Mad Jay. If you game, I play games. I run games, travel for games, write about, stream, and podcast games. As I explore the shape of my new game, I thought I could cheat by having conversations with different folks about how they do it. Welcome to episode four of Muses of Play. You did not miss episode three, the Zoom Cloud Ate It. That was our interview with Tim Hutchins, and it was fantastic. Uh unhinged. I loved it, and the Zoom Cloud ate the recording. In the past, uh, I don't know. I I've had plenty of recordings just hanging out there. Uh I've never had or lost an episode that way. So something must have changed in their policy, and I wasn't paying attention, uh, but they only hang on to your recordings for I think 30 days, something like that. And so it's my fault. I should have been paying attention. I should pull him down, redundancy, all that other good stuff, but I trusted it and it ate it, and I'm sad. We reached out to Tim and he's agreed to come back on and do a redo. Not a one-for-one trying to recreate that magic. I think that's gone, it has escaped, but I think uh we can uh do something fun and pack it on to the end of the season. So, this episode, Sarah and I are trading thoughts and musings about our interviews with Tim and the bakers, and what we take away for ourselves and our work from both those creators. We recorded this episode in Riverside. This is not a plug, but this is to say, you know, AI is like bacon, and we're sprinkling it everywhere. I let Riverside do the initial cleanup of this episode, and it might sound a little weird where it removed the ooms and ahs. So let me know what you think. Um it for sure sped up my work by maybe 10 minutes, uh, but it sounds weird, and I apologize for that. In any event, here's our conversation.

What The Bakers Model About Collaboration

SPEAKER_01 2:55

I'm jealous about the Bakers. Um, I'm glad we got to talk to everybody. I'm jealous because I think they have probably the best alliance or uh collaboration of game designers all under one roof, right? They're all different enough, uh, but they also maybe it's because of family, maybe it's because how the kids are raised under uh Meg and Vincent, but they have I think an easy path, at least from this side, it looks like, uh, to talk about where the differences are, what's working for them, what's not working for them, right? Under under one roof, where I think the rest of us, we don't have it, we don't have communication that tight. Uh so that was that was fascinating for me to see that.

SPEAKER_06 3:41

Exactly. Like they have they clearly have this culture of open communication as a family. Like you can tell it is just their way of life.

SPEAKER_02 3:52

Right.

SPEAKER_06 3:53

And that has has informed the now we're gonna all make games together.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Right.

SPEAKER_06 3:58

And you know, I thought about that in terms of the different places I've worked and how none of them had that. Like even people who have been working together for years a lot of times do not have that amount of openness. But there's also got to be friction when it's the the power imbalance between parent and child.

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:23

Like, yeah, probably Vincent's kids are the best ones situated to be like, dad, that idea, you should work on it.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:32

But are they?

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Right.

SPEAKER_06 4:34

I don't know. I don't know. But it also seemed like they were so invested in encouraging their kids' ideas that it didn't matter almost.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

I agree. Yeah, no, I agree. There was a point when I'm fuzzy, but I remember there's an interaction between uh Vincent and one of the kids, and I think they were developing their own thing. Vincent has some ideas, and he kind of submitted them. Uh, and it wasn't uh here's how you should do this. It's I like what you're doing. Here's what it made me think of. Use this if you want or not, right? And I thought he made two submissions, and I might have to go back and listen to it. I thought one got reworked and the other was rejected, right? And I thought, oh man, how would I feel, right? One, I'm dad, how dare you reject? I've been doing this for years, kid, right? And I thought that was awesome, right? That he, however, that works for Vincent, that he's able to do that and also let the kid know that this is your thing, right? I'm I'm on I'm on your bus, I'm on your ride, I'm supporting you. Whatever you need for me, I'm I'm happy to help. And here's what you inspired me to make for you, right? Use it where it fits or not, and it's okay. And I think that's awesome. I don't get that at work.

SPEAKER_06 5:46

I it it reminds me a little bit. So my son is seven, and he is adorable and wonderful and awesome. And he also has a little bit of trouble with understanding that mom is competent, especially around things like games. Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 6:05

Which, you know, we've been raising him knowing that mom is a game designer and we all play games together. I do tap out of certain like video games and some board games, like they've been playing Battle of Hawk, and I'm just like, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm gonna go hang out with the cat and knit while you guys play Battle of Hawk. Nice because we all have have our different likes.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

No, that's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_06 6:29

We've I've been having this this interesting thing where like I ran Mouse Ritter for them and Kiddo really added in his own stuff, and that was amazing. And he seemed to respect and understand more like oh mom's running the game.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Right.

SPEAKER_06 6:47

But anytime we're playing and I introduce an idea, it is completely shot down. And so I think this might just be like he is in a developmental stage where he is trying to differentiate himself.

SPEAKER_04 7:00

That's fair, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 7:02

I want to see how that continues because you know, listening to to Megan Benson, I'm like, oh, I need to really look at my reaction when he does that. Because I have the baggage of being a woman in gaming.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Right. Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 7:18

And I'm like, don't act like I don't know what I'm talking about. Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Look here, kid.

SPEAKER_06 7:25

So it's gonna be fascinating to see as he gets older how that happens. Um, not that I think I'm gonna end up with a setup like like Meg and Vincent, because I think they're just totally unique, you know?

SPEAKER_01 7:36

I agree, I agree. I usually get asked, do, do my kids are they gamers? And I say they are all of them are game adjacent. They're familiar with games, they have sportsmanship, they know table manners, the social contract, all that stuff, because we've played a lot of games, right? My daughter, I would say, is not a gamer, but she will play for the social connections and bonds and things, and she will play the game. And she's got some favorites, uh, but she's probably not likely to say, hey, let's get together and do this thing, right? Because I love this game, let's keep playing this game. My son's in, but his tastes run way different than mine.

SPEAKER_06 8:14

Yeah, that's kind of come up.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

Yeah, and that if I'm hesitating, that's a weird space for me, right? Because I think some of it is like, you should play this because I know it is awesome and you're gonna love it, right? But also it's fantastic to see what he picks and why he picks it. And sometimes I'm surprised, right? And we have some good games with something I would not have picked up off the shelf. Most notable is Cyborg of the Morkborg line. I I think the design and the graphics are they hurt my old man's sensibilities, but I understand what's happening there, right? I'm not, I'm not Oh my god, you just made me spit take.

SPEAKER_00 8:55

No, I wish folks could see it. That was awesome. I was not expecting that. I uh I think I've said it before.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

I I am not putting that game down in in at all. I just it's not for me. I think the design wasn't for me. I think it's for uh a younger set of folks, and I recognize that, right? But he picked up uh cyborg and I wouldn't got the PDF because again, as I'm going through it, I'm like, man, I just I'm gonna choke somebody out if I have to read this book this way, right? Um and that's me. That's all me. That game is awesome. And uh we've played four or five sessions of it, and and I'm glad he was hyped about it. Otherwise, like I said, I would not have picked it up and I would have missed out on it. They do a lot of great, awesome things. Some of it I I've stolen for other games. Uh, they have a book of locations, and they kind of you have the location, it looks like uh, you know, any other draft type map, but it's kind of annotated with, and it's not necessarily game-specific stuff, but it's kind of evocative descriptive things. And I want to say a lot of them like that. Yeah, they've got like lists of things in the bottom that's not obtrusive, but usable, right? And I'm like, why haven't we been making maps like that? That's obvious, right? So so yeah, uh I like watching them grow and come into their own, but uh it it forces me to uh kind of hold some of my biases back or be aware that I have those so I don't make a mess of things.

SPEAKER_06 10:28

So I have two tangents. And let's let's do the kid one first. So as a tangent, you know, Meg and Vincent are working with adult children, and you have older kids. So I know like that's the difference there. Right. Um I also get a lot of pushback. People assumed whenever I had my child, I would immediately start making kid-friendly games.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 10:55

And I'm like, no. No, that's not that's not me. That's not what I'm interested in. Like I've been really surprised by how much I love Mouse Ritter, but also it has high fatality in it.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 11:09

I had to like pledge some dice to not kill my son's mouse because I was like, that's not happening. But yeah, that's just like that. That is just not something that I am currently interested in. Although my son has requested I make a game where we are cats.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Okay, okay. Was this before he played Mouse Ritter or after? After. Okay, nice.

SPEAKER_06 11:36

Yeah. I was like, look at that.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

That's I like it. Nice.

SPEAKER_06 11:43

And he loves his mouse. He is so excited. Um, the other tangent was you talking about that just reminded me like I come from more of an OSR background or NSR, new SR.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

No, you're right. OSR, NSR. Uh there's there's two more that I'm missing.

SPEAKER_06 12:02

Yeah, which is great and awesome. Like so the idea of like picking and choosing little bits from other games is something I'm so used to.

SPEAKER_03 12:13

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 12:13

And and something that I have done on my own when making different little things. I have made this a couple of times, but it's like a system generic supplement called A Secret History of Wolves and Girls.

SPEAKER_03 12:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 12:28

And it's a rollable table that's like all the different ways you can get fucked up with wolves and girls in a game where suddenly there's like an army of wolves with little girls riding them, and you have to decide if you're gonna fight them or not.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

Wow, I like that.

SPEAKER_06 12:44

Or maybe you read the wrong page of a book and you turn into a werewolf. Yeah, fun time. It's fine.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

I like that.

Tim’s Solo Space And Artist Myth

SPEAKER_06 12:56

I think that brings us to Tim though, because Tim works alone.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:01

And for me, he's got a lot of energy. And I love that. Yeah, so much energy. I love that. I love the brother, sister, nibbling, ribbing the two of you have. That was fantastic. But that made the podcast easier too, because I haven't interacted with Tim outside of cons, and I wasn't sure how the conversation was going to go. Uh, he was in this format, he would be kind of a complete stranger, and I'm having to work it out real time. Uh, but you guys just ran with it, and I'm like, I will just hang on, right? And this is cool.

SPEAKER_06 13:36

Well, I, you know, part of it is just coming from the same town and being so like familiar with the cultural mores of of St. Louis.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:45

Um, but you know, like we said on the podcast, Tim and I met outside the gaming sphere.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Right.

SPEAKER_06 13:49

So now it's like funny whenever we run into each other at gaming conventions and sit down and talk about games. Nice. Uh, I'm glad it was enjoyable. I was afraid we were too unhinged. No, I think that's good.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Because I think I think I feel like we got a very authentic Tim uh recorded, right? Uh so if it's unhinged, it's unhinged, it's authentic, and that's that's where he's at, right? I will probably pull video stills and then get his permission because his setup where he his his work area. Yeah, uh, yeah, uh that draft table. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_06 14:23

I just he's gonna start worrying that we are going to come and like strange van circling his block.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Is he home? Is he home? Oh yeah, I wonder how well I think all of that, I think he touches and uses all that stuff in that space, and that's part of his creativity. The interesting bit, and we talked about that, his uh I think he called it selfishness about his creativity and that space and what he shares out of there. And that was interesting too to me. Um and he has an awareness about that.

SPEAKER_06 14:56

So well, I know one of the reasons we wanted to talk to him is because Tim is originally a visual artist, and we wanted to kind of get that additional perspective, even though it turns out that both you and I also have art backgrounds. And I think that you know, there is the myth of a solitary, selfish artist who abandons all else in favor of their art. And I think that that is a fantastic contrast to the warmth and collaboration we saw with the bakers. You know, we when we interviewed them, it was just their house.

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:31

It was just it was not staged, it was not like look at my pretty background. I think Vincent was in their bedroom.

SPEAKER_03 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:38

You know, like it was very this is who we are, right? Sports and all. And Tim's was very much like, this is where I the magic happens.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Right, this is where the magic happens.

SPEAKER_06 15:49

Which I understand because I am I'm recording in my office with all of my pretty things that bring me joy and and creativity. And you know, maybe I lean more towards Tim's side because I know that like my son is a little iffy about coming in my office, even though he loves it because I have a dollhouse that he loves playing with. But he thinks some of the stuff in mommy's office is a little scary.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

Gotcha, gotcha, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:13

Which but is that that visual artist impulse? And is it like touching the physical parts of art? How does that change how we make games?

SPEAKER_01 16:28

No, it's fair. I like that. That is fair. Yeah, I think you say that, and I think uh that resonates with me. I'm very visual and tactile. I want to get my hands on stuff. And I don't know that I would have said those words prior to these recordings and talking to folks.

SPEAKER_05 16:46

So interesting.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Yeah, yeah. I don't know that I would have articulated that. I I I think I'm just going with it, and now putting words to it, I think that means something, and I could do something with that. So um I lost my train of thought. There was something else I had about Tim.

SPEAKER_06 17:04

Unhinged, beautiful table.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think we for sure caught him in his element, right? Yeah. And and that made it authentic, uh, talking to him, speaking to him, talking about his projects and stuff. I think that makes makes me feel uh working alone that uh he's inspiring, right? Because a lot of times I'm like, man, I wish there were other folks to collaborate with, work with, and that's hard because you got a vibe, you gotta have some type of connection or whatever. Otherwise, it's like having a regular job, and I'm like, oh, I gotta call this guy again.

SPEAKER_06 17:37

No one wants that.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Like right. I want what the baker's got. I want some of that.

SPEAKER_06 17:43

Well, and I know I mentioned in our first podcast that I have the weekly catch-up with the other Sarah, and that we kind of dev edit each other's work a bit. Whenever I did not have that, I found myself falling into so much self-doubt. Um, just that how without someone else to look at my ideas, right? How do I know that they I'm not fooling myself and they're they're not actually bad?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

That's true. Yeah. No, I feel that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 18:19

Because I went from about seven years of collaborative working to working on my own, you know, truly, that it's like suddenly that support was drop was kind of dropped out from underneath me. So whenever you are alone and you're making games and whatever your goal is for that game, whether it's to make people happy, have fun, scare the fuck out of them, you know, whatever. You don't have anything to push against. So it feels very freeform and oh no, I am making a mistake. Oh no, if I make a mistake, there's no one to tell me.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Right. Right. How do I check this?

SPEAKER_06 18:58

No friction.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Right, no friction.

SPEAKER_06 19:00

I like that until you get it on the table and other people play it, and then you're like, oh fuck, what have I done?

SPEAKER_01 19:04

And see how bad about that because I know yeah, no, you're right. There's a step for me in between I'm making stuff and I'm letting other people play with that stuff. I need something else in there. Because once we get to the other people are playing with it, that feels like playtesting to me. And uh, I like that to be very targeted, and what I have isn't ready for that yet. Um so yeah, I think I think yeah, that metal step for me would be having some other designers, some other input critiquing it before I let people play with it.

SPEAKER_06 19:38

We just we all need to band together and make a co-op of some kind.

SPEAKER_01 19:41

I think that's true. Do you and the other Sarah? Is it you guys get together virtually or you get together in person?

SPEAKER_06 19:47

Virtually, she's in the Pacific Northwest.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Gotcha. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 19:50

Um, and I'm in the Midwest. So she is absolutely adorable as she wakes up just early for our calls.

SPEAKER_03 20:00

No, you go.

SPEAKER_06 20:01

Then we we've been doing a lot more like catching up for the past few weeks because holidays and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Right.

SPEAKER_06 20:07

But but they uh just got their choose your own adventure excerpt of it published. So that was very exciting. But normally a couple of days before we meet, we send a Google doc to each other that we're able to comment on. And I'm being honest here, I can be so rough. I mean, one of my last comments was just like, you need to rethink this entire thing.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

Wow. That would put me on a plane. I'm coming to see you, Sarah. I'm getting on the plane. Don't get on the plane, Jay. But you guys have been you have you been friends for for some time?

SPEAKER_06 20:45

Yeah, yeah. So like they are just they do the same thing back to me where they're like, This part doesn't make sense. You need to, I mean, they at one point were like, I see what you're doing with this game, but you need to totally rethink how you're approaching it. Gotcha, gotcha. So we are at the point where we can give this kind of like devastating feedback to each other and still be friends.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:11

And that is another aspect of this because I could not take that feedback from some people.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

Right.

SPEAKER_06 21:18

Right. So that's like the downside of collaboration.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, uh, I was thinking, yeah, I was thinking the same thing is that I I want yeah, I think you have to trust the person you're collaborating with. And maybe that means you you both have been friends uh in some capacity or whatever, so that the friendship endures after the critique happens. In a work setting, somebody could catch the the bad side of a coffee pot. Right. I just yeah um, and that's harder.

SPEAKER_06 21:51

Well, that's how I learned that I can't take that that feedback from just anybody.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Right, right.

SPEAKER_06 21:57

You know, we all have egos, and there's a little bit of how dare you.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Right. No, I agree. I agree. I was so I was down this line of asking about uh your your group, your your meetings with Sarah, because my thought is how do I do that for myself? Uh and then who do I know that I could trust and they would trust me to have that or at least begin a level of critique where we could do some real work together. And so that's where my head is. Because I think I think that's what I'm missing is feedback and interaction with with other like-minded folks.

The Missing Middle In Design Support

SPEAKER_06 22:33

The the games industry has a real problem that I may have mentioned before, which is we are great at supporting first-time designers. And we're great at supporting established designers, but we drop the ball when it comes to that middle ground.

SPEAKER_03 22:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 22:49

Once you've made your first game, when you're trying to make your second game, there is if you're lucky, there's people to help you. But there is nothing, no official formal structures like scholarships and conventions and stuff to it's it's left up to individual game designers to reach out and help people to make their second and third games. And when you're on your own like we're talking about, that's where things go bad.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Right.

SPEAKER_06 23:20

So we don't, you know, I know a couple of organizations are doing some mentorships.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

Right.

SPEAKER_06 23:26

So that's probably the closest thing we have. So I know that IGDN at some point was doing a mentorship program. And then the games organization in the Pacific Northwest, that Ross Cowan, I think that's how you say his name, runs is doing a mentorship. But that might also be I think that's also directed at like students.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

Oh wow, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_06 23:48

And then uh Metatopia is all about first-time designers.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

First-timers, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:53

And they're lovely when you return your second and third time. But that's a convention. It's bounded. We're talking about the day-to-day work of the games.

SPEAKER_03 24:03

Right.

SPEAKER_06 24:06

Which is one reason why on my I feel like I'm shamelessly plugging here. No, do it, do it, do it. On my Patreon, I have been meticulously detailing how I fill out a SRD or a source resource system resource document because not everybody has one of those.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

Right.

SPEAKER_06 24:28

And whenever you're doing a uh game system, like I typically hack PBTA, having that structure helps me make sure I don't miss any bits of the game.

SPEAKER_03 24:38

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 24:39

Like I'm not gonna miss playbooks, but do I do I need seven basic moves? Do I need an entire extra like system to do the things that I want to do? Um, you know, have I have I gotten this the one game I'm working on? I didn't have rules for harm and healing. And I was like, oh wait.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Right. I need that. I forgot about that, you know?

SPEAKER_06 25:01

So I'm I'm writing on my Patreon about how you fill out an SRD because I'm like, this is just something that no one like isn't out there necessarily teaching unless you're in some sort of game design class in college, maybe. So I thought it would be good for people to to see that part of my process, and then I'm gonna do a deep dive on one of my playbooks and see how that goes. So I'm trying to make it a resource for middle career design first time and middle.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

I I wonder if I'm of the mind, I don't wonder. I'm of the mind that this this middle phenomenon uh crosses uh a bunch of different spaces. I know on the software side we have the same issue, right? There's a lot of resources for beginners of frameworks, programming languages, processes, or whatever, but not a whole lot for the folks that are in the middle. I'm working on uh video game to for Steam going to Steam, and it's the same thing, right? There's a lot of tutorials for beginners, uh, but there's nothing in that middle space for folks who already are strong with different languages, they're just trying to figure out how to solve or how to approach different problems or whatever. Um it just fake it, there's nothing there. Um, and so I wonder, well, even in the newsletter space, I'm out here because I've got two different newsletters, right? Yeah, and again, there's a bunch of shit about here's how you get going. I'm like, yeah, I know all that. I got all that stuff. I'm here, I've got a certain amount of subscribers, I'm trying to get over here. How do I close that? There's nothing. There's nothing out there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 26:41

There's really not. I like I get a little frustrated because I subscribe to a bunch of people's newsletters and I read like Rascal News and stuff, and I'm like, but there's there's still so much missing. Like I appreciate the work that's being done.

SPEAKER_03 26:57

Right.

SPEAKER_06 26:58

Like I'm gonna look over at my newsletters real quick so that I don't miss name stuff. Um like the indie RPG newsletter is great, and Explorator is great. And but both of those feel like you are in the know-in-the- industry, like you understand what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

Right.

SPEAKER_06 27:25

And you like Explorator, especially is very much like high level more advanced. So like what if you're not ready for that?

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Right. What if you're not ready for that? Right.

SPEAKER_06 27:40

Um Yeah, I am not sure. I'm not sure what to do. And so many newsletters are also like, let me update you on what I'm doing as work, which is very valuable and kind of hits that middle ground if they're in the same space as you. And I think I think that's why we end up seeing so many game design companies that are like two people.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

No, yeah, yeah, I had to think about that. No, I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 28:11

So that you get that feedback and you have something to give you that friction. Or one person ends up doing all the game design and the other person ends up doing everything else.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Everything else, right.

SPEAKER_06 28:22

Which is a different problem.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Right. That is a different problem. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Um my takeaway for the Bakers is I'd like a uh I'd like that level of c collaboration or some variant of it. And so I think going into 2026, Judd had mentioned some type of recurring meeting, creative grouping thing. So I may take him up on that. And maybe we add, maybe it's just me and him. Maybe we add a third. I don't know how big is too big, maybe two's enough. Then because that seems to, I like in the conversation with the Bakers, I liked how they bounce off of each other, how they push back on some thoughts. Uh, I like that whole collaborative thing they had going, and I feel like I'm missing that. And so that's what I take away from them.

Taking Practical Lessons From Both Guests

SPEAKER_01 29:16

From Tim, I think uh it's okay if I'm a little bit selfish about the work, and because I used to feel a little bit guilty about that. Um, but I think it's okay as long as I stay aware of it and it doesn't become an obstacle for me. And he's also inspired me to move from my little tiny room here back down to my to the basement as as my office space and just sprawl out across the whole whole basement. So good.

SPEAKER_06 29:47

Set up some art stations, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Yes, yes. And I've got it's crazy because I've got, well, I had that fake job and I had the stand for that, and so I'm gonna repurpose that. I was supposed to be down there this morning to record this, uh, but it's not quite set up. So I'm gonna do that. Uh I have a standing table that I like, and I'll probably start doing more prep stuff there. I've got a drafting table, not impressive like Tim's, but it's more like the the Walmart drafting table. But it's a star. But yeah, he's inspired me to move all this stuff back downstairs where I have space to sprawl out and be the mad scientist.

SPEAKER_06 30:24

I would say that the Bakers are inspiring me to be more open. Like I can be very closed off and single-minded whenever I'm designing, although I I do have the meetings with Sarah, but there is uh an openness to the way they approach design.

SPEAKER_02 30:42

Right.

SPEAKER_06 30:42

That I find very inspiring. Um, there's a lot of yes and and what if. I'm like, oh, that's delightful. I want more of that.

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yes. I love that about them. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 30:53

And then Tim, like, like you, um, I have an easel, not a drafting table. And I'm like, maybe I should unbury my Easel. Like, maybe and I found this too because I joined a class that is about working with fairy tales to make visual art and journaling.

SPEAKER_03 31:12

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_06 31:12

And while I was making stuff for them, I was like, Oh, I feel so good. My creativity was flowing, like it was amazing. This was before the holidays. I was like I was making visual art every day. I made a little tin full of 30 drawings, and I made a tunnel book, which is this expandable book where different uh pages are cut out and you look through it, and I I made a little doll out of felt. Like I was making all of these things and the creativity was just flowing. It's like once I started, I let myself do the tactile work.

SPEAKER_02 31:47

Right.

SPEAKER_06 31:48

The purely intellectual work got easier. And I need to keep that up, even though I'm not gonna lie, it's hard.

SPEAKER_03 31:58

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:00

Like, I don't have enough time. There's not enough home.

SPEAKER_00 32:06

Agreed.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

Agreed. And I get up early and there's not enough time.

SPEAKER_06 32:10

Like, it doesn't matter how early you get up, the stuff will fill the time.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Right. Let's talk about work, work updates.

Work Updates And Work Feels Like Play

SPEAKER_01 32:17

Oh, yeah. Uh, and when I say work updates, I'm also dumping in anything that you're currently playing that you want to talk about. Because to me, work and play, unfortunately, in my head, they're they're they run close together.

SPEAKER_06 32:29

That needs to be a future topic.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

I will add it in the housekeeping. Uh I was in the car with my kid this weekend. I told him it's after the holidays, we kind of missed that window. He's looking for a part-time gig to jump on the seasonal hiring stuff.

SPEAKER_03 32:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

Um, and I said, I'm not pushing you, right? I think it's good, right? He brought it up initially. I said, I want to just keep you moving in that direction and not drop it. This is your last year of high school, and it seems like you're not going to go to college. We're going to be looking at tech schools, trade schools, or whatever. And I'm also thinking there might be some downtime or whatever where you're not moving anywhere academically, but you're out in the job force or whatever. I said, what you don't want to do is graduate in June, and then now you're working 40 hours in July, because that will suck, right? Yeah. It'll suck, right? I didn't get to Yeah. I said, get this part-time job, right? And that way you kind of ramp up into it, right? Uh and uh give yourself some breathing room. I'm like, you will hate life, I'm telling you, right? It will suck. Don't do it. I said, or you know, you got to figure out a thing that you love, right? And then it's not work, right? You be like dad, right? Every day it's, you know, I people will say, wow, you working on Saturday? I'm like, yeah, it's not really work, though. It doesn't feel like work. And I would do this anyway, right? Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, I I think it's a double-edged sword. I think it doesn't feel like work. A lot of times it feels like play, but it gets in the way of your family, your partners, or whatever, if, right? They're like, Why are you working? I'm like, ah, it's not, you know, I'm not I'm not really working. And so I'm just taking a little time. Like, I'm right back. You're just watching TV anyway. It's fine, right? I'm just over here, it's fine. Yeah. So no, we should definitely talk about that for sure. Try work. So I uh I've been noodling around with the new uh Apocalypse World, uh, third edition, burned over third edition. I think if you are a Patreon of the Bakers, you have the I think they're draft or beta sheets. So I've been messing around with that. I've played a couple of one-off sessions with those rules straight, and I like what's happening there. And now I was messing around with it for my I want so we talked earlier about OSR stuff. Uh in my head, I love the stripped-down BX variants of DD, right? I feel like I get the most. Yes, right. You can do it yourself, whatever you need, you can put it in there or pull out or whatever. I love that. What I want is a sci-fi version of that. And I looked at a bunch of stuff that exists out there. I think they get too specific about what they're doing in their setting, and that's not a bad thing, but I don't have that same vibe yet. Uh so I was playing around with that with Apocalypse World Burned Over edition. Um, playing around with different moves, different ways you could play around with the dice. I think out on uh the Baker's Patreon, he talks about you don't have to use 2D6, plus a stat, right? Here's some other things you could do, and I was messing around with that. I think that's the only new current work I have. I'm doing post-production stuff for lifted. I think I'm I'm waiting on art forever, and I think what I'm going to do is cut loose. I don't know why I didn't think of this before. Take the art I have, let Nathan finish the layout, cut loose the first edition of the PDF, missing some art. Wait for the rest of the art, go back, do a second edition of the same PDF, and then my print run will happen after that. That way everyone at least has because I'm just waiting on, we're sitting around waiting for art at this point, and I should have thought of that earlier. I could just cut it loose without all the art, and it's just it's a PDF. I can make another version of the same PDF with all the art in it, and it's fine. So we're gonna pivot and do that, and hopefully I can get that knocked out in the next month, and and that'll that'll be moving.

unknown 36:35

That's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 36:36

Yeah, no, it is. It is. I know a lot of folks are again, I I I say I have some of the best Kickstarter backers out there. Uh I get a couple of soft complaints, uh, but not a lot. And and there aren't it. I'm I'm I'm super late. And so I'm not mad when someone says, hey, you know, I thought we'd have this sooner. And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm with you. I understand, and I'm sorry. Uh but yeah, I think this goes a long way to and then we started Monster of the Week playing in real life. Uh my friend Jeremiah, uh well, you know Jeremiah. Yeah, um, my son and uh my friend Rebecca, who lives here in town. We were looking for a fourth, but I think the three of us, well, the four of us, are fine. We've got two games under our belt. Max and Rebecca haven't played any Powered by the Apocalypse games before, uh, but they've taken to it like ducks to water. And so, yeah. Uh Jeremiah's good because sometimes I can say, uh, we're gonna do this thing, we'll go around the table, and Jeremiah will go first so you can kind of see how it works.

SPEAKER_06 37:38

Yeah, he is good at that.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Yeah, and so yeah, two sessions, two sessions in. Uh it's been pretty good. He I wish I had picked up Monster of the Week sooner. I don't know it is. I don't know why I I don't know why I didn't. Uh I like it. I like I think of all the PBTA games I've been exposed to, I like that it cuts, it feels like it took all the original Apocalypse World stuff and only got rid of what didn't fit the genre it wanted and kept the other things because it worked fine. That's what it feels like to me. Um uh so and we went all in. I think we've got like three of the hardcover books that we're playing with. So yeah. So we're enjoying that. Uh, we're playing Sundays at our local game store, and we got some looky loss, so I feel like uh we might have our our fourth player uh sooner than later.

SPEAKER_06 38:29

That's nice.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

Yeah, no, so I'm enjoying that.

SPEAKER_06 38:33

So starting first with what I'm I'm playing. So I mentioned we've we've been playing Mouse Ritter and we're using the tiny tiny fables supplement. So it's like fairy tale themed.

unknown 38:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 38:44

And so we basically have a campaign going on, and we've done two sessions, and the third one we should probably do soon before we completely lose it. But it's just me, my husband, and my son, and we've been having a great time.

SPEAKER_00 38:57

Nice.

SPEAKER_06 38:58

I I totally recommend the game system, no matter who you are. It's like it's so fun. And it's got the little chits because we're playing in real life, obviously. It's got the little chits that you lay on your character sheet to show, like, oh, I have a crossbow or I have a giant needle. Oh no, I've I've been enchanted by the evil witch, so now I have enchanted on my conditions, that kind of stuff. So it is very like BX.

SPEAKER_01 39:23

No, I yeah, I uh I have a soft spot for BX variants. I I love it. I think I think I we get the best games because there's not a whole lot of stuff in the way.

SPEAKER_06 39:34

Yeah. And this is very much only make a rule if you really need to. Then in my, as you know, one shot monthly for which plays online once a month. Uh next up, we're gonna be playing Trophy Dark. That was a request, and I'm very excited about that. I have extensive notes on how the system works and how the incursion works. And so instead of adventures, they have incursion. And I'm so excited to see like how this plays out and how it works.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

I love Trophy Dark. I love it a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 40:05

So I've never played, I've never run it. And I have this arrogance where I'm just like, oh, I've never played this game, but I can totally run it.

SPEAKER_01 40:14

No, same. I think that's I think that's a good arrogance. I think we need that. No, same. I will do the same thing.

SPEAKER_06 40:20

Well, the One Shot Monthly group gets the bulk of that because every month it's like, here is a new game that we normally vote on, and it's like, here's a bunch of games from my backlist of that I've never played, I've never run, that I wish I have. And we vote on it and figure out a time and day to play. And so we have done everything from like um oh no, it was Morkborg. It was Ruins Palace of the Metagorgos.

SPEAKER_03 40:49

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 40:50

We did everything from that to the clay that woke, like an awesome game. It was so good. So just this wild range because I have an extensive gaming collection, and my husband and I collect everything from OSR to old school DD to the latest releases. Um, which speaking of which, I actually got Ironsworn for Christmas, so I'm gonna be I'm kind of kind of might do a little solo game.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would love to hear about that. I am kind of I think I'd look through it, but it's it's I I feel like it's had some revision since the last time I looked at it. I bounced off of it, and that's me. So I'll be curious what your experience is there. I'm cranky about solo games. Well, and I said this to Tim. I think I got excited because he did Thousand 1,000-year-old vampire. And I loved what was happening there. So I went and picked up two or three other solo games and they just weren't working for me. So I think whatever that core loop is, maybe it's different per game, solo game premise setting, or we haven't cracked it yet. And maybe yeah, so I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 42:07

Well, that that leads into what I'm working on. So I have a secret project that I've been working on that is a hack of a game with a feminist view. So I'll be talking more about that uh in the next couple of months.

SPEAKER_04 42:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 42:23

But I I looked at my, you know, I my my folder of current games and it's kind of bizarre because I have six games in there. I'm like, how am I working on six different games? So we have Secret Project, we have In the Pines, yes, editing, Velvet Glove, which there's stuff going on with Velvet Glove. It is currently waiting for editing, but I am having to re-evaluate how I want to release it.

SPEAKER_02 42:53

Okay.

SPEAKER_06 42:54

Uh, which actually started with a conversation with Tim. Okay. So I am I am considering my options for Velvet Glove.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

All right.

SPEAKER_06 43:04

I have my little Maiden in the rake game that was the one Sarah was like, you need to stop. And I think that one I might just lay out and put out in the world because I had a very successful play test and I it's not it's not a big game. Maybe I don't need to do more, you know?

SPEAKER_02 43:23

Right.

SPEAKER_06 43:24

But the problem with working solo is how do you figure that out?

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Right.

SPEAKER_06 43:28

I have Prison Planet, which needs a new name, and it has been going really well. And then I have this game that I never talk about called Mother, which is another one of those games that I'm trying to hurt people emotionally. But the premise is you are the mother of a monster. And you come across the scene of one of the things they have done. You have to deal with the aftermath of your offspring people. I can see it on your face already.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah, that's that's rough. Those are hard choices. Yeah, I love it. I mean

SPEAKER_06 44:00

There's always a chance this game will just fade back into nothingness. But every time I talk about it, I get that response from people. They're like, oh God, that's so and I'm like, that's normally a sign that I'm doing something right.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Playing sagas of the Icelanders, is that right? Depending on who's running it, they force hard choices like that. And I will make that same face, right? Because I love it. But I also don't want to choose, but I love that I'm stuck here, right? Yeah, I love it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_06 44:34

Yeah. I need to work on that some more. So I yeah, six games. And I just don't know how that happened.

SPEAKER_01 44:41

Wow. Well, a takeaway from the Bakers, Vincent. Uh, he's like, I feel like he's got a bunch of things in motion, right? Uh, because we talked about what happens when you're stuck. And he's like, say what now? When you what when you what?

SPEAKER_06 44:56

That was the funniest part.

SPEAKER_01 44:57

So and I think that's the secret, is that if you've got multiple things happening, uh, you just switch and and and work on the other thing. And that made me feel good because I've I've got stuff and I will get stuck, and I will just start swapping things around.

SPEAKER_06 45:12

Yeah, that doesn't even count the fantasy novel I'm writing.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

That is yeah, you got a lot of stuff going on.

SPEAKER_06 45:18

I gotta I gotta make sure that I'm finishing stuff and I don't spread myself too thin.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Right.

SPEAKER_06 45:23

Um, but I think the fact that I have two of them like in the pines is ready pretty much to go to layout, and I need to just start doing the layout. Gotcha. So having everything in like such different stages, I think, is what is healthy where I want things to be.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

No, I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_06 45:43

Because if I just stuck with one project from beginning to end, I don't I don't know that person. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 45:49

I'm also, yeah, you say that, and I'm also glad Vincent said uh he doesn't know when a thing is finished, right? I just you know it's never finished, right? And so that is helpful. So I like that too.

SPEAKER_06 46:02

That's a little bit of permission given.

SPEAKER_01 46:04

Yeah, yeah. I want to go back to the little chits in uh Mouse Mouse Raider. I'm learning or rediscovering in real life table play all those little things. Well, it's tactile stuff, right? On the table. I love it, and I love the reaction I get from folks at the table.

SPEAKER_04 46:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Um, so for Monster of the Week, I have uh face cards. I've just through magazines, newspaper, whatever, I just cut out faces of folks and I put them in those card sleeves. I have a whole box of those that I show up at the table with. We're playing in Kansas City, so I've got like a couple of Kansas City maps that I put out there. What else is there? I have, I have it's downstairs, I will show it to you, but I've got pictures of it. I got an advent coffee box, it's all black. Uh I emptied it out, and all the books, all the play materials, everything fits in the box. So it's like a black box of secrets, and I show up at the table space and I just put it on the table. Yeah, yeah. It is fantastic. I love it. And so uh, and like I said, the reaction you I get from the other players is is fantastic. You put these things out and you pass them around so people can touch them and flip them over and do stuff with it. So I'm loving that. When you uh mentioned the chits, I'm like, yeah, I get what's going on there. I love that.

SPEAKER_06 47:22

So I mean it's interesting because I was reading an article on Rascal News about how like so many game designers want to do games that have components, but because of the tariffs and everything, it's getting all junked up. Like I get that, you know. Doing card components and stuff like you know, whenever we played Zhang Shi, Blood and the Banquet, I wish we were in physical space because all the stuff is so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 47:50

There it is.

SPEAKER_06 47:52

You know, and I did what I could with with a VTT, but like at the end of the day, it's so hard to top that feeling of being together at a table.

SPEAKER_01 48:04

That is true. That is true. I I haven't published my play fear list today. I'm pushing that time back on Mondays, but in there I run through some stats. So I did a survey, and just to figure out am I hitting the right topics, what are people doing, uh, and that kind of stuff. One of the interesting things was I want to say it's like 45-ish percent of the folks who answered the survey, and I think it's about maybe 100, maybe 200 people, um, are playing hybrid in real life and online. About 30% are online only. The sad one was 30% answered, I'm not playing anything at all. Yeah, and I'm like, oh no, it's uh how can I help? I wanna I want to move you out of that 30% bracket into one of the other two. Yeah, that made me a little bit sad.

SPEAKER_06 48:55

Um There's a woman in my neighborhood who just got a storefront and she started a board game night, and she's like, Is there anyone who wants to run a role-playing game night? And I was like, I don't have time. I didn't I I have all these these reasons not to, but I don't know, maybe I should. It is so hard because yeah, like that's sad.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Yeah, yeah. I didn't and I don't know if I'll do a follow-up. In my head, I think of what are positive reasons that that might be. And it could be you're you're out in a remote area and they're not enough gamers in that area, right? No, because then you could play online. So these are folks that are not playing at all. Yeah, I don't know that. Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 49:47

You should do an online convention. Convince your your readers to come play with you.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Yep, come play. Especially if you're not playing anything. Yep. Let's play something. Yes. So current muses. Uh

Current Muses

SPEAKER_01 50:04

I've got a couple. And I don't know. I might have to put pictures in, but I think I can show you. I'm gonna start with the sip and paint. You know what this is? Sip and paints?

SPEAKER_06 50:13

Yeah, where you get wine and sit around and paint. Yeah. At an event.

SPEAKER_01 50:18

Yeah. All right, so I gotta turn this background off first. Yeah, so I've been doing a bunch of those. And when I say, yeah, when I say a bunch, you'll see in a minute. I can show you at least two of them. Uh, as soon as I turn off my my background. There it is, virtual backgrounds, none. And if I do this, you see those up there?

SPEAKER_06 50:39

Those are so good.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Yeah, I yeah, I did two of those. You just, you know, you bring your own wine, bring your own bottle, they set you up with acrylic paints and they talk you through, right? Everyone's painting kind of the same thing. Now, I don't know. There's a Star Wars one up there where you've got Han and Leia sitting next to each other, right? Now, I think originally the actual one, she had a heart Death Star, but it didn't look quite right, right? No, so I did the circle one, and instead of putting that little circle indentation, I made the indentation indentation in the shape of a heart. And so, yeah, so I'm digging those. I'm I'm I'm loving that, so I'll continue doing those. I've got two more in the hallway on the other side of that wall. Really? So yeah, I've yeah, bunch.

SPEAKER_03 51:27

Awesome. That's totally awesome.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

So, yeah, so I'm digging that. I like that. That's my new hobby for now, as long as that lasts. I'm digging that. Um the other inspiration I got that lit some fire for me is uh was boxing. And it's crazy. Uh, I think it's doing the podcast with you, talking to the bakers. I think Tim's in my head. I had a conversation with Judd, and I think all those are cooking in my head. I'm painting miniatures in the living room, and I'm watching like stupid TV, and I don't know why boxing ended up on it, but they were talking about Terrence Crawford. Uh, he just recently retired, undefeated. My thought then, as I looked at his history and they're talking about him, and they're talking about all the different folks he's uh fought in the ring, and then other boxers that are in parallel with him across history, it occurred to me that I could make boxing the background for my cultural RPG game. And then I started, I've got a whole sheet or two, eight and a half by 17 or whatever, 11 by 17, just brain dumping on there. Uh, because I think it's not even uh cultural African-American stuff. I think it's more being the underdog, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

And when I look at the Terrence Crawford and other folks like him through boxing, those are all underdog stories to me. And so I think for sure uh the game might be around boxing. And I was playing around with apocalypse world moves because I don't want to do a round by round, blow by blow kind of thing, uh right. I want that to be one roll and it's done. We know what's hap we we know what that was about, and we move on to the rest of the drama, and there's so much drama around boxing. So I will talk to Nathan for layout stuff later, but I will pick his brain about how he got to wrestling. Yeah, um, yeah, and so I think that's where I'm headed. At least that's where I'm at right now. But it was dumb, stupid spark. And like I said, I think all the other stuff in my head was there. It just happened that day boxing was on and it fired everything up. And I'm like, oh, this is silly, right? I could just run this down, see what this looks like.

SPEAKER_03 53:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

Awesome. Yeah, I think I spent the whole Saturday and a half running down other boxing stories, boxing drama stuff. Not for historical stuff, but I just, yeah, I want all the RPG-loaded drama things. And there's so much drama in boxing, it is it is ridiculous. I wasn't aware. And so, yeah, that's my current muse.

SPEAKER_06 54:12

Well, you know, I mentioned that I'm taking this class where we're doing visual arts, and I actually need to look at what this week's assignment is. So making, you know, everything from books to drawings to dolls has has been really good for me. And I I you know it's it's it's kind of like you know, I'm aware of like art therapy where you're making art while you're talking to your therapist and stuff. It feels a lot like that. Okay. It feels a lot like I'm I'm finding some blockages and getting around them and breaking them up and going because it's January, and even though I know culturally we like reset on January 1st or whatever our um resolutions. I'm thinking it's also a season of rest and darkness and coziness, and so I have been trying to be as cozy as possible and not over overextend myself. So the other thing I've been doing is listening to the latest Welsh in the machine, Welsh in the machine, Florence in the Machine album, yeah, which is also making me think of rest and ritual and like how creativity works. So the secret project I'm working on actually started as an inspiration from her song One of the Greats. Okay. And I was home alone, so I could be unhinged. I just blasted that song on repeat until I got all of that initial inspiration out. So, like you did with the boxing, even though mine was on Google Drive. You just sometimes you just have to blast music and get it out.

SPEAKER_01 56:00

Yeah, get it out, right?

SPEAKER_06 56:02

Does that wrap us up?

SPEAKER_01 56:04

I think so.

SPEAKER_06 56:05

Go feature dogs.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

Yes. Oh man, it's man, I just realized it's Monday. I felt like it was later in the week.

SPEAKER_06 56:13

I know. Normally we are later in the week, so it feels a little weird.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

All right, you have a good day. Enjoy your week. You too. I'll talk to you later.

Listener Prompt And Where To Find Us

SPEAKER_06 56:24

Thank you so much for listening. Please comment and let us know what you thought of the episode or your thoughts on creativity and making games. You can find us at the following. You can see my work at scorcha.net or support my work at patreon.com slash Sarah Doom.

SPEAKER_01 56:42

And you can catch me at playfearless on Substack or Magizero.com all letters. And we will catch you in the next one.