spk_0:   0:00
our guest today is a game designer and an extraordinary player to have a table. She is the owner of Black Girl Game Works and co founder of More Seats at the Table. Her skills are deep like Roll master deep It's me Should be on dice ology at the Su 22. We should be Happy New Year. Welcome to the dice Ology show. Thanks for

spk_1:   0:50
having me.

spk_0:   0:52
You're our first guest on the show this year for 2020. Very cool. How's your holidays?

spk_1:   1:00
Good. We, uh we we redid a bathroom, which was precisely as exciting as it sounds. We actually did manage to do it without killing each other or wrecking the house and everything works. We didn't have any major league. So can any of us win?

spk_0:   1:17
Nice. Was that Ah, gift from Santa

spk_1:   1:21
Ah, it's something we have been planning to do for a little while. Way have this, like, half bath downstairs. That was just kind of weird. And it just was like, Okay, we're gonna ship the kids off to their grand parents on, and we're gonna come back early from Christmas and we have, like between then and new years to finish it up. So

spk_0:   1:42
So you both hands own did it yourself.

spk_1:   1:44
Oh, yeah. This is, like, you know, getting into it and getting your fingernails dirty. And ah ah.

spk_0:   1:53
How long did that take?

spk_1:   1:58
It took most of the, like, four days, Uh, because we had most of stuff like we prepared and like, all right, we did get this this So we've been ordering it for, like, a couple of weeks before, um, to the actual work. Some of it was like, All right, we gotta actually literally wait for paid to dry and so factors into time. And I was like, All right, let's get anything until that's dry. So,

spk_0:   2:25
you know, it's funny. Um, what part of the country are you in?

spk_1:   2:32
I'm in Baltimore, which is, uh, right on the bay. Uh, near Hopkins, the school and new. Your memorial. There's actually a tree that Al Capone had planted in after the nurses. That ah, you know, Memorial saved his life right up the street from us. Wow. Okay, that's Harry. Weird. E.

spk_0:   2:54
I would say that. That's kind of nice for everything we hear about Al Capone.

spk_1:   2:58
Yeah. Apparently he was really nice to people. If you were nice to him, if you weren't nice to him, you're screwed up.

spk_0:   3:07
That kind of seems fair. I don't know. It seems there. What's early gaming like for you? How did you get in the gaming? What does that look like?

spk_1:   3:16
Esso. I actually was hanging out at the mall with a friend of mine waiting for moral combat to start. Ah, the movie on. We're waiting in the food court at the mall because neither of us had cars. We had to rely on public transportation. So he had to get there early because of the train ran. And we look over and there's, ah group of guys with books all over the table, and I sort of like you and thank you for the movie, too. So they were rolling up Earth on characters. Ah, for their they they just finished a shadow run campaign, and somehow the shadow and characters had fallen into some kind of wormhole and ended up in the earth on world. So they were starting a new care with new physical bodies with same brains, kind of thinking. And so they're like, if you want to come, we're gonna be at the student center at the college. You happen to be at two. So, like, Oh, that's convenient. So, uh, we went the next day to hang out with him. And the rest, as they say, is history.

spk_0:   4:14
Wow, that's amazing.

spk_1:   4:18
Looking back, it's a very crunchy system. Um, I haven't played in a while, but, like you had, like, there were steps with the dice and you and half using, like, the whole seven day spectrum. And it was I ran it for a while that it's been years since I've played and or run it. So, uh, yeah, it was It was fun. I enjoyed it when I did it. I don't know if I could go back to that level of crunch.

spk_0:   4:47
That's funny. What are you playing these days?

spk_1:   4:50
A little bit of everything. Um, I do a lot of play by post giving, So, uh, um, asking painter to urban shadows campaign. We're playing Jonathan levels. We used to be friends. Just kind of like, um, Veronica Mars. That that the RPG um, my home group is playing urban shadows at the moment. And I'm in a to be humans game, and I'll be playing heist, and I'll probably be playing D and E in the near future. So, yeah, that's a lot of games. What do you say it out loud like that?

spk_0:   5:28
That is a lot of games, just impressive. So

spk_1:   5:32
the nice thing about being a professional game designer and that being my day job is I have time during the day to do things like that.

spk_0:   5:39
Oh, I'm jealous living. I'm trying to get more of my day job to be game design or in that space, but it's hard. It's hard, man at space. Yeah, so I'm jealous. Um, how's played by Post working out for you? I've had some games in the past. Um, they seem to fizzle out for me

spk_1:   6:02
when they when they sing, they sing. Um, I'd say for every like, five games I start. Only one actually ends up going to completion. So that's pretty. That's the fizzling out is pretty standard. Don't feel that it's not you.

spk_0:   6:20
Okay, um are there any, um, I want to say ah special or must have tools that you use for play by post?

spk_1:   6:31
No. I've got one play by post that me and my friend have been doing for four years now that we just do an hangouts.

spk_0:   6:39
Wow. Okay. Okay.

spk_1:   6:43
Um but yeah, you really need is like, Ah, there's Ah, there's a tool now called Roll Gate r o l E Gate. Um, that's gotta decently. Robust flavor is kind of built in. Um, I've used discord for play with those pretty much as long as you have, like, a central location where everybody can, right? It's pretty easy.

spk_0:   7:05
Okay, Yeah, I think for me usually it's it's a holiday thing or weather, and then there's a break, and then it's hard to get everybody back in.

spk_1:   7:14
Yeah, that's Yeah, that's pretty normal.

spk_0:   7:21
Well, that's cool, cause I thought it was me. Maybe I was

spk_1:   7:23
thinking that that's just the way it is. It's like I find it's different with in person. Games were like your regular group, because getting back into the groove it when you aren't making a specific time to go back and check it Eyes over here s o. That doesn't happen as often would play my post as it does with, uh uh, based of Seascapes.

spk_0:   7:51
Uh, Warren House echoing.

spk_1:   7:53
Ah, we just got the first half the book back from the editors. Actually Ah, and so we're incorporating her feedback on and setting it off to lay out while she works on the second half. So it's my like if you can't see, I've got my fingers crossed. And, like also my my plan is to have it out. Ah, but the end of first quarter this year, mid second quarter at best. Like at worst like worst case scenario, it doesn't get out to the end of the quarter. Definitely. Before my birthday, this thing is going to be e if I have to, like, shoot somebody or something to get it done, that's what it's gonna be

spk_0:   8:41
nice. Are you eyes it getting play tested and shopped around. Like to think

spk_1:   8:48
I actually ran two games of it. Ah, or con two weeks ago, Um, just feeling out the rules, I know that I run it differently than lawyer runs it. Then Jerry Jones. It, like way have this balance of okay. I am like superstore game. I can play a game with absolutely no rules and entered ice and keep going and a lawyer is very much no, you have to have rules of days What do you mean, you can't do that? It's not s o. We had Billy. There's his delicate balance. We We've been walking with the whole system. Um but I think what? We came up with us pretty cool. Um, it, uh, uses to t 10. You add them together, and then you add stats and skills, eh? So it works out pretty well. Um, I've had to face that. I had to play tests of it a couple weeks ago. Same five Pregent characters. Same starting point. They both went very differently, and it was great. I loved it.

spk_0:   9:46
Nice nose. That's nice. When the system is flexible that way where you have two different styles of GM ing and the game still runs nice. Yeah, right. And that's coming out with under a new agenda. Publishing, right?

spk_1:   10:02
No, no, that's us. That that's it. What we're doing said new agenda is menial and Jerry, yet we've been I think this is our second. We just finished the second full year in business s o

spk_0:   10:19
nice. Nice. Exciting. Yeah. Yeah, because I remember when you guys when you folks launched and so I was thinking I think you've got to be older. It's gotta be older than the year. Year and 1/2 now. So

spk_1:   10:32
yeah, right about way officially launched January 1st 2018. So

spk_0:   10:39
All right. Anything you could talk about that's on the plate after all. Run that. You folks are gonna do it right

spk_1:   10:46
now. We're just trying to get this one out before we even, like, start looking at other stuff. I know, I'm not. I I got to get this one off my plate and we'd be, like, streamline this process a little for my

spk_0:   11:00
the software engineer and me understands that part of that let me refine this process and then try it again with something different. And I get that. That's awesome. Tell me about black girl GameWorks

spk_1:   11:14
back. Okay, marks is is my personal. Ah, is what I do all my freelancing under s o ah, everything from I'm working with pies. Oh, for example to do pathfinder stuff. Um, Thio. The stuff I did for evil hat with it. If the flu. Ah, that's That's the That's my my my baby, sir.

spk_0:   11:41
I know that's a big list of stuff in there. I was second that out as ah

spk_1:   11:45
ee occasionally, like go back and like, I'm trying to make you see, somebody's like, Yo, what have you worked on that? Like, Okay, I got it. And then I, like, sit down and start writing in Psycho about that's actually a lot of stuff occasionally surprises me to Maksim probably should update that list a little more to which is even funnier on. And I've been trying to, like, pull in, like, any clips and stuff of people like panels and stuff that I've been on, which I found quite a few. I gotta make a page for that at some point.

spk_0:   12:16
Yeah, I forget about adding listing or counting for panels. Um, end up on a handful of panels and I don't know a good way to say I've also done these things, but I think they're worth while saying to Yeah, so now. So I'm embarrassed because as I was doing Misha research, I saw, um, more seats at the table and I don't know enough about what that is.

spk_1:   12:47
Sure, more seats at the table is a project. That is me. Care, Meron um Kim lamb on in a crater. We started a biweekly newsletter that highlights cames by Ah, women another Sorry, marginalize genders. Um, and we highly games by them. So every two weeks, you'll see like Okay, you're kicks orders that are coming out that are by women that are my trans artists that are right on by their areas that air, um, these air games that we like that we've played that have come out from from them these air Ah, sometimes it's like, Oh, this person's running Ah, nice kick starter or they're running a bundle on ditch or a game jammer things on. So we put those together and put that out in the world so that people can see what's going on and where they can find them support people, cause often we find that, uh, you see people things they like, but I don't know any. Blink on. And it's like, Yeah, I know that we're here. We've been here a while. We're very loud. If you actually listen.

spk_0:   13:57
No, that's because I do. I do see that a lot that I don't know why I don't know how to find or I don't know, one of X, y or Z applies, and so So this is an open list, Um, or unopened email list that

spk_1:   14:12
Yeah, it's it. Three to anybody can subscribe. I don't have a link hitting, but I will get it to you. It's Anybody can drive. It's free. College said Come to your email twice a week. Um, they're not twice a week, Twice a month, roughly every two weeks. Um, yeah, it's It's been It's been kind of fun. We've done it. I think we've done this last Issues like issues 27. So we've done it for about a year. Okay. Ah, that's the whole project. You D'oh! It's always kind of last minute of, like, trying to figure out. Okay, Well, who had a lightning this week is like, Oh, well, do we do this one over? This woman says sometimes you stretch it a little. Sometimes kicks are a little thin on the ground,

spk_0:   15:02
right? Right. I think it's a good idea. I was So I was talking with Bo earlier. Um, they used it itch. I owe a lot. Um and I just recently got out there and looked around and there was so much stuff. It was overwhelming. I didn't know where to start, and so sometimes having a list to look at, to start to figure out where what I want to look at, where when I guess. Especially if you know that list is, ah in an area that you're interested in. So I think it's awesome ideas. So I will put in the show notes.

spk_1:   15:37
Yeah, and an inch is is like a really interesting space going on right now. It's it's there's, like so much, so many games out there that it's like I want to play them all. But I know a way the mold. But they're all there's a tons of interesting stuff out there.

spk_0:   15:55
So there is have you? Are you thinking about moving some of your works out there?

spk_1:   16:02
Ah, possibly, um, I haven't Part of it is most of my stuff is either freelance or a Laura, and it's a little tricky to do. Lord Ana on Mitch. Uh, not impossible, but little trick here, Um, so, yeah, that the it's a lot of my work has been done for other people, so getting it out there is a tricky. So I've got a I've got a few soul of products that I'm working on our solo ish from projects that I'm working on that will probably be available. Niche. Eventually.

spk_0:   16:39
I'm still running. I It's like a rabbit hole I started with. There's a game jam I was looking at and then that turned into Oh, hey, there's a table top stuff out here. Hey, there's this'll ce computer gaming stuff out here. Look at this other thing I don't have a label for, but that looks interesting.

spk_1:   17:01
Um, thundered, Commander, Actually, you've been doing a lot of, ah, work with getting them to make the platform or tabletop friendly, which has been pretty cool.

spk_0:   17:12
That is nice. I wasn't aware of that at school. Yeah, I see. It's also very international, too. I didn't Yeah, I didn't expect that. Uh, and now a message from our sponsors. Big Mad Love to Just Karen Michael Dunn, O'Connor, Quinn, Judd. Jim likes games. Lou Well, Francis and Gina Ryker joining the Dream Hustle. I appreciate you folks. Let's keep this are working with what draws you to a game. What what are the You know what turns to gain.

spk_1:   17:50
It depends like sometimes it's just like, Oh, that's a really cool piece of art. I'm curious about what's going on behind that and what's under the hood. Ah, sometimes it's, um, the premise. Like, um ah, I like the ah politicking of urban shadows and the like, kind of supernatural, um, set up behind it. But that's a different game then, like months or hearts, which is also technically about the same kind of thing, but different. They scratch very different inches. Um, some of it is like, you know, Okay, this is kind of closer genre, like reading. So let's see how it plays on at a game. Um, and it's pretty much just depends on what I'm. What I'm trying to scratch that day is the best way of describing it.

spk_0:   18:48
What's, uh, what's a good comfort? Go to game that you like.

spk_1:   18:55
Prime Ass is the one that I pick up on and play free most frequently. Ah, just cause just about everybody kinda has, like, at least some kind of Touchstone into the superhero world. Um, whether it's a Marvel movies, whether it's the comic books, old school Superman, you know, everybody has like something that they know about it. So it's easy to pick up and play with that genre pretty quickly for most people

spk_0:   19:26
now. I like mass eso. I like masks a lot, but I hate maybe hate is kind of strong. No, I don't I don't I don't like teenage superheroes, but Mask doesn't Awesome job. It's hard not to like that.

spk_1:   19:41
Yeah, it's trickier. Um, because and I find I tend to play more on the upper end of the teenage victim. So, like, more early community college, then late high school, which she finally takes. And that's one of things I like about mass over, say monster hearts. Monster hearts is very much about that high school experience that is kind of fictionalized. That doesn't match up at all with my high school experience.

spk_0:   20:14
It's me. I'm like, Yeah, I'm with you.

spk_1:   20:16
I did not do anything I like party. What? What is this thing that you see? I went to prom. Yeah, sort of. But I went to prom. I was home. I like midnight, I think. And I didn't have a date. So, uh uh, and s o, who are his maths? It's not about the high school experience. It's about the relationships, though, which I kind of like

spk_0:   20:46
I do. And I think I love I think Brendan ran a game on. And the thing I was I was skeptical going in because of the teenage superheroes thing. And the thing that won me over is I think we messed up the first mission. Um, and the adults come along and everything's just pops in a place for them, right? Uh, they could do no wrong to clean up all the stuff, and then they start lecturing thing, and it's hard to push back because they fix the problem. Uh, and the mechanics allow for that and that to that grabbed me inside. I didn't like how that felt at the table, and it was a good thing. So, uh, I'm glad he built that into the game. That for the most far, the adults to do no wrong. Um, and then they changed your stats by telling you

spk_1:   21:39
think, e think you I think you're a bit of a failure, and you know, you're gonna lower that, or I think you know, I'm so disappointed in you. Like I'm not angry. I'm disappointed. It's that Oh, you can you get that visceral feeling of Wow. Yeah.

spk_0:   21:56
So that was working on my novel. I'd rather you be angry.

spk_1:   21:59
Hey, didn't sometime,

spk_0:   22:04
so that's a good game. That's a good, solid game. I like it. Um, do you find you have to teach more at the table when you're running a game of the game, or do you just jump right in and play

spk_1:   22:19
most of the time? It's pretty intuitive, Um, and actually play it more than I run it, Um, which is kind of amusing because, like So I got a play set in the in the game officially, but I've never actually got in a plate of all You've got to run in and like you. Ah, but so the players that I've managed to find and play with their pretty quick and grasping the ah the hell hello, how it works. And that's what I think, that it's a testament to, um, both the writing of it, which Brennan did an amazing job, but also like the the the ease of, um, just the generalized system of how, um, how about the apocalypse style stuff works where you can, just like everything you need is on like these two pages, and it's easy to just rock and keep going.

spk_0:   23:15
What's your convention schedule Look, like for 2020

spk_1:   23:19
packed, uh, I already, uh, starting in October. I have one. Starting in October. I had one a month until April. So

spk_0:   23:33
I had, uh,

spk_1:   23:34
Carrie. I had big men con in October. Right then Meta topia in November. Uh, packs unplugged in December. I just got back from Orca Con in January. Ah, next up is information on February and then break out Con in March. Nice. And then I'm co running. Ah, uh, can't notably this year. Uh, that's in May, and I think I don't have anything officially on my schedule after that, but it's just like that of busy, like chunk of months.

spk_0:   24:16
That's a good, busy schedule. Do you have a favorite con?

spk_1:   24:23
Oh, I like big bed con a lot. It's one of my favorites. Um, and I like cremation a lot just because it's in driving distance. And cremation was the first con I went to when I got back in the gaming. So we I started getting ah entered attack in Atlanta. Um and then we moved. And so I didn't play for a long while. I didn't get back into it to my kids were like three or four. Um, and situation was the first time I went to after a halfback indie gaming. Um, so there's there's kind off this really good feelings associated with it. I really like the people that are there. Ah, so there's a little bit of the soldier probably involved there, too. Uh, yes,

spk_0:   25:12
that's fair. I like big, bad kind. A lot. I like where it's situated on the calendar. It's kind of the last kind of the year for me, and so when I played the most at a lot of the kinds of burning stuff, but it's the one I will play a lot of different of the games on schedule, off schedule and people just awesome. So there's some magic there.

spk_1:   25:30
Yeah, it's It's a super cool thought. I really enjoy it. I always have fun there.

spk_0:   25:38
I have this on my list and I want to get to it before. Forget about it because I know you brought it up a long time ago, but I don't know that I ever act natural. Got the whole story fascinated its

spk_1:   25:49
role master. So you said yes. Tell me about roll Master. I love that game he held to go when I was when I was still a college, uh, one of our g m's was this old, uh, Coast Guard guy had been okay. When I say old, he was, like, maybe 5 10 years, maybe five years older than the rest of us. Oh, but so Yeah, he came. And he's like, Hey, I got a game. It's called Rule Best. You wanna play? And we're like, Sure, why not? Uh, and we played that thing for probably good. Four years. Ah, got it off Sundays in in various dorms and, uh, frat house lobbies and ah, eventually, like apartments. Uh, that was what we did for a good chunk of the time. It was Roadmaster. I definitely could not go back to the level of control, Master, Uh, s so at the time, I was, uh, a computer science major. So my senior projects for two classes, my database class and my user interface class was making a character generator for Roll Master, which I could not find The disk I have it on anymore can stand out in useful Ah s O that it incorporated all of the exits like an eight. We like we had it in an excel sheet for awhile. Eight pages when you printed the Excel sheet to do all the skills and that was counting. If you had spells, spells could go like another five pages. Ah, and so yeah, I at one point I had made a OK, and it's gonna add in all of bonuses for Okay, you're Adelphia. These bonuses. Oh, you're you're this kind of thing. You get these bonuses and And it was it was it was a labor of love. Uh, just not happy had the disk that had it on their bike and not find this to save my life. But I am not going back to be doing it. I still have the books, dear. That's the funny part E

spk_0:   28:11
I can't let my go. And I don't know because I'm like, I'm never gonna go

spk_1:   28:15
for it is giving it? Yes,

spk_0:   28:17
but I can't let him go. I

spk_1:   28:19
did finally get rid of my dead lands. Books of my mother in law's neighbor. I got any gaming when she went into college, so I gave her my dead lands books. Uh, so she was like, Yeah, we're getting tired. D d I wanna do something else like, Hey, you go. Just tossed him off.

spk_0:   28:39
Nice. What is your dream table look like? If you could have anyone, any game was at your table. Yes. And what game are you playing?

spk_1:   28:51
Um, and it could be today I got to do a decent number of my bucket list gave us, uh, which is kind of fun. Um, like I got to play Blue Beard's bride with Sarah running and that. Okay, Sara, I love her. I love her. With all my heart creeping on, It's great. And her mind is just so twisted. And I love it. Um, but it's Yeah, it's it's it's not for everybody. Uh, Souto, uh What I anybody? Every table?

spk_0:   29:25
Yeah, it's your dream table. She also runs a very mean game of lamentations of the flame Princess.

spk_1:   29:33
I haven't played that one, but I'm sure she does. Really Wicked game of velvet glove, which Oh, my gosh.

spk_0:   29:41
Wait. Played online and that was awesome. Like you. We just can't leave me here in one session. I need some more of this. This thing This is awesome. So, yes, I love that. That was a good game.

spk_1:   29:55
So weird. I've gotten to play like a lake that I've kind of play a lot of my bucket list. E Uh, well, something of the amusing answer is I would get, um I would get joy. Jason morning started play masks and possibly enjoy it. But that's never gonna happen. Amusing. I didn't know that. He doesn't like your, um uh, thing in the world. Ah, I don't know. I have to think about that

spk_0:   30:36
one now. That's really That's cool. That's cool. Um, how about this on you Connects card, This one, Um, so given the state of a ll, the bad stuff we've got going on in gaming. And I try not to focus on a lot of the negative things, but there's a bunch of stuff across gaming. Um, there's a lot of things we've experienced in tabletop gaming. Um, where's the joy for you? What makes you stay and play and participate

spk_1:   31:03
here? It's little things like, um, seeing kids in a crowd, seeing other people that look like them for the first time in a game, Uh, seeing my daughter, getting to pick up stuff that I've worked on or worked with and seeing her experiencing it the first time. Um, and seeing it be different than when I started. Um, I still sit down a lot of tables that are very pale. A bill, uh, but they're there getting less. Uh, my home group is more than half female at this point. Um, so pretty pale. But, you know, there's only so much you can do about that. Uh, but, like, half my other games are pretty less less. Oh, um, like the living humans game were in or the, uh, aspire game you're running, Um, so little things like that. Like seeing Harlem on down, come out seeing ah, part time God's come out or seeing like the Pathfinder release for, um crap. What's it called? Uh, they did one for, ah, comic book crossover. That's full of It's a black comics art. Um, and it's amazingly beautiful book. Um, so seeing strides being made towards making games look more like the world, which makes it more likely for people in the world to pick it up and say, Oh, this is for me to, um is it's it's it's getting I mean, yeah, you shall have your pockets of resistance. And you still have your trolls online. You know, go will get broke or whatever the hell it is, a way. And then so am Occasionally I get some of that. Um, but not nearly as often, um, as is wanted. Think, Um, probably because I don't think they see a point in going after me. It's like I'm black and I'm queer and I'm a woman. And there you really gonna tell me I'm doing something for work points? Amy, Really? What? What are you getting out of saying that? Tim Reid. What d'oh expecting that happen for accusing me of doing something for work points. Just just curious. Uh, like, what do you think I have to prove to you, Uh, s so I I do see progress being made. And that's why it's day we're Can the

spk_0:   34:06
listeners find you on the social nets?

spk_1:   34:07
Ah, mostly you can find me on Twitter at b G game works. Um, or when I remember, I block. I don't remember. I usually often rant on Twitter, and then oh, hey, that would make a good blood. And then Millie, copy it and clean it up and make a little list. Uh uh. Yeah. The easiest place to find me a speedy game works on Twitter.

spk_0:   34:34
Awesome. I appreciate you doing this.

spk_1:   34:36
Yeah, it's fun.

spk_0:   34:39
And I will see you into Thursday's for some spire

spk_1:   34:43
and you'll see me on Monday. Oh, no. Later. Because they're moving at one.

spk_0:   34:49
Moving that one? Yes, that's

spk_1:   34:50
Friday. Got it, huh? You

spk_0:   34:52
know, you're right. I need to check my calendar to my guru. I'm gonna mess that up. Yeah, I want to be there

spk_1:   34:56
for that calendar. That's I I remember Lee. It's on. My calendar's

spk_0:   35:03
all right. I will talk to you later, Doctor. Later. Thank you very much. That's my shoe. Thanks for listening. Mixology is sponsored by listeners like you during my patriot and get access to extended interviews on bonus episodes. Send your comments to me. It madge ing at dice ology dot com on Twitter at good ice ology. Let's make this